Ever felt overwhelmed by the fast-paced, results-driven American way of life? Longing for a deeper, more meaningful connection with Jesus and others? Join us as we explore the power of slowing down and walking with Jesus in this insightful discussion with Kyle Idleman, pastor of Southeast Christian Church and author of When Your Way Isn't Working.
Follow us as we uncover the importance of abiding with Jesus, as highlighted in John 15, and discuss how our desire for immediate solutions and measurable results can overshadow the power of connection and spiritual growth. Learn how to strike a balance between spiritual formation practices and connection, with our motivation rooted in relationship rather than production.
Lastly, discover practical ways to intentionally create space for rest, connection, and abiding in God's rhythms. Delve into the significance of connecting with other believers and how it can help us stay connected to Jesus. Let's reorient our lives towards a more fulfilling and meaningful connection with Jesus and others, together.
Ever felt overwhelmed by the fast-paced, results-driven American way of life? Longing for a deeper, more meaningful connection with Jesus and others? Join us as we explore the power of slowing down and walking with Jesus in this insightful discussion with Kyle Idleman, pastor of Southeast Christian Church and author of When Your Way Isn't Working.
Follow us as we uncover the importance of abiding with Jesus, as highlighted in John 15, and discuss how our desire for immediate solutions and measurable results can overshadow the power of connection and spiritual growth. Learn how to strike a balance between spiritual formation practices and connection, with our motivation rooted in relationship rather than production.
Lastly, discover practical ways to intentionally create space for rest, connection, and abiding in God's rhythms. Delve into the significance of connecting with other believers and how it can help us stay connected to Jesus. Let's reorient our lives towards a more fulfilling and meaningful connection with Jesus and others, together.
It's interesting you say that that Jesus walked everywhere, because a year ago, like literally right out a year ago, i was in a holy land doing a 100 mile hike and we walked the footsteps of Jesus like we walked around the Seed of Galilee and we just walked where he walked and there was 100 miles over the course of a week and one of the things that hit me on that trip was how much time he spent outside walking with people that he shared life with, and It's a lot of time, you know.
Speaker 1:So within the Gospels you read these narratives where he's in this Village and now he's in the next village and and it felt like he hopped in the car and drove over there. But you know it was a half a day's hike and and it really was convicting to me about the pace in which he lived and how he connected with people Walking from village to village, walking along the way. In fact, that phrase along the way is a really common phrase in the Gospels to describe the life of Jesus. You know it's along the way and so You know that's in stark contrast oftentimes to the way we live and certainly In the start, contrast to the way that I found myself living as certain certain speed and pattern.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Rethinking Christianity podcast, a home to conversations focused on Rethinking, challenging and engaging with Christian thought. You can visit us on Instagram and Facebook at Rethinking Christianity podcast. I'm your host, blake fine, and thank you for tuning in to today's episode. On today's episode of Rethinking Christianity, we have Kyle Eidelman, who is the pastor of Southeast Christian Church, and he is the author of when your way isn't working, this book released on June 6th. It's a kind of a study of John 15, and I'm super excited to have Kyle on here to talk with me today. I appreciate you taking the time to sit down talk with me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, looking forward to it, man, really good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so before we kind of dive into some of the details of the book, i'd love to hear kind of your background, of how, what led you to, i guess, leading in pastoral ministry when you kind of felt that call, and Maybe just a little bit about your, your following of Jesus.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely Well I. If you would have asked me When I was growing up what is the one thing you won't do, It's probably this. You know, god has a way of Sometimes I Guess it's a sense of humor but sometimes You got to be careful what you say. You end up doing the thing you didn't think you'd end up doing. And I like to say I got tricked into this little bit.
Speaker 1:When I was 19, maybe 20, i started preaching at this little church I want to say a little, i mean like church of 30 people down the road from where I lived and I Preached on a Sunday just to fill in because they didn't have anybody, and They said you want to come back next week. I said, yeah, i'll come back next week. And They said you want to come back them next week? I'll come back the next week. Like five or six weeks later I walk out of the sanctuary and into the lobby and there's this piece of paper up on the bulletin board And it just says Kyle Eidleman, senior minister.
Speaker 1:Wait, what did I? we didn't talk and nobody voted. There certainly wasn't a burning bush. It was just like, well, yeah, you're doing this now and for the next number of years like that's what I did really was very young and while I Was doing and I just learned to fall in love with it, fell in love with the people that I got to serve.
Speaker 1:I'll in love with God's word and just the Opportunity to watch how it Intersected with people's lives at just the right time in a way that I knew I couldn't orchestrate, that was supernatural and, and so from there I went to plant a church in Southern California, north Los Angeles County out there, and loved planting a church. It was a, you know, we met in a movie theater for full of people who I didn't think I was gonna be a pastor and they didn't think they were gonna go to church and It was really beautiful to see what God did there and to be a part of that. And then I've been a teaching pastor and senior pastor at this church that I met now in Louisville, kentucky, for the last 20 years and Love, love being here.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. Yeah, it's kind of interesting. So you know, i'm 27 so I'm not as far into working in churches you are, but I've been doing it since maybe I was like 18 or 19. I feel like that's how I guess, like you kind of like somebody will ask you to do something and then somehow that you end up keep doing that thing Over time. So it's kind of funny. You mentioned that. You know.
Speaker 1:I think that's the way God works. The way I like to put it is that one thing leads to another. You know that when we're you know young, early 20s, like we want to be able to see things five years out or ten years out, but Really it's just saying yes to the next thing and then being surprised. You know when you're you know in your late 20s and 30s, how this led to that and that led to this, and and you look back and trace the dots. But I think this is the way God's will often unfolds. I mean, i think it's a biblical concept where, i mean Abraham comes to mind, where God says to Abraham here's what I want you to do, here's where I want you to go, but he doesn't tell Abraham where. So Abraham just sets out like take the next step, and then one thing leads to another. And there's a lot of peace in that, like if you just if you say yes to God, one thing leads to this thing and and it's not always predictable, but that's part of the adventure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that is definitely been kind of my experience. Yeah, so with with ministry, you know, i know like there's different seasons of life in in ministry, like you have good seasons, bad seasons. I'd love to hear kind of what season you were in that kind of led you to writing this book, because a lot of this book it It seems about kind of slowing down And not being in, in hurry which I know it's kind of like this It's oxymoron, we're following Jesus is.
Speaker 2:You know, jesus walked everywhere, but a lot of times serving in church can be this busy, busy, so I'd love to hear what that season was like, kind of leading you to writing this book.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting you say that that you and Jesus walked everywhere, because a year ago, like literally right out a year ago, i was in a holy land doing a a hundred mile hike and we walked the Footsteps of Jesus, like we walked around the sea of Galilee and we just walked where he walked and it was a hundred miles over the course of a week, and One of the things that hit me on that trip was how much time he spent outside walking with people that he shared life with, and There's a lot of time, you know. So within these Gospels you read these narratives where he's in this village and now he's in the next village and and it felt like he Hopped in the car and drove over there. But you know it was a half a day's hike and and it really was convicting to me about the pace in which he lived and how he connected with people Walking from village to village, walking along the way. In fact, that phrase along the way is a really common phrase in the Gospels to describe the life of Jesus. You know it's along the way and so You know that's in stark contrast oftentimes to the way we live and, certainly in the Start, contrast to the way that I found myself living as certain certain speed and pattern. You know, i I would say Around 2019 I became senior pastor at this church and that transition I sure didn't, a season that was really busy for me, but I knew it was temporary.
Speaker 1:I remember saying to my wife hey, you know, i'm sure the first year or so is gonna be a little crazy, but You know we'll adjust. But about however many months six, eight months into it, covid hit and then it just got busier and busier and I just kept thinking, hey, it's okay, we'll, we'll get to a place that things normalize. But I like to think of it as like. I like to think of it as like If you run a sprint and it turns out to be a marathon, you're in trouble, right. Like if you think it's only going to last a few weeks or a few months or whatever, you're fine. But then, when it's a few years, things start to catch up to you.
Speaker 1:And so I was in a position as a pastor where I had worked with lots of people who had violated God's rhythms for their lives over the years and had kind of experienced the pain of doing things their way instead of His, and as a result of that I was able to see some of these same things were evident in my life, and so in the book I talk about these four emotions that surface when we're not abiding, when we're not staying connected to Jesus, when we're kind of doing things our way. And the four emotions I highlight in the book are common, but when they come all together and they don't go away is what I'm talking about. One is discouragement. It's where you live with this lack of courage or enthusiasm. It's normal for a few minutes, any part of any day to feel that way. But when that is how you feel for a long period of time, you know that's not good. That starts to not only cause you trouble but cause trouble to the people around you just living with this lack of courage or confidence.
Speaker 1:Second thing is anxiety, where you feel overwhelmed by things in your life. You know you can't control things you can't change. Third thing is frustration, where you're more irritable. Frustration or anger is. It spreads. So if you feel it a little bit over here, your way is not working over here at work or you're violating God's way over here at work, then it just you know it transfers onto your other relationships, family. And then the last thing is just being tired, fatigue worn out, you know again, that's normal enough, but when you're constantly living that way, when you're just always tired, that's an indication that you're violating these rhythms that God has made for you to live with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, And it's really interesting you bring up those four emotions because I feel like right now, like more than ever, you're able to see those emotions in people, or those emotions that people are wrestling with through like social media, like especially like you get on Twitter and I try to stay off of Twitter, but anywhere, like you see, just like never, like never before, all these emotions that most people are dealing with, like, in a sad way, it just seems like the American way, this busy American way, has just created this like insufferable experience of being a human, whereas what you write about calls to like the opposite of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, i don't think it's coincidence right, like if you look culturally around at, let's just take, let's take frustration as an example, like this tendency for people these days to be easily offended or to be very sensitive or constantly irritated.
Speaker 1:This thing isn't right. And so when you recognize that on a large scale in our Western world, that's an indication that we're as a whole, we're not living the way that God designed us to live. I see this sometimes when I go to you know a different country, and I see the pace that they live, and much more simple life perhaps, and and look at it and you think, well, that's not the way I would want to live. And yet they're, they don't feel discouraged or anxious or depressed on the same levels that we do. And so, yeah, i, you know those emotions were consistent in my life, some of those were, but, but to your point, i recognize those on a larger scale in the church where I get to serve. Just recognize that man, this is something that seems like people are dealing with on a larger scale than I've seen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, was there for you like, was there like any personal experience, that kind of was like I guess maybe you processing this information before you decided to like write about it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, i would say a few things. One I went away to to take like a week and a half to do some writing and studying and things like that. Usually that's a very productive time for me, and when I went away and I spent I don't know like a week trying to be productive and had nothing to show for it. And you know, i get done and there's like four pages and and usually, well, the picture I would use here is like, if you put, if I put the bucket down into the well and pull it back up, water's in the bucket, like that usually is how it works. I just need some time and some space and I can pull some water up.
Speaker 1:And I found myself in this season as a, as a pastor, where I keep putting the bucket down into the well and pull it up And they're like, oh, there's nothing, there's nothing really in there. That bucket is pretty dry, i'll put it back down there, pull it back up. No, still nothing. And so to me that was a pretty significant indication that something wasn't right, that I needed to take more time to dig the well deeper instead of presuming upon the fact that water is just going to be there, and and so when that happened, it was like this kind of light on the dashboard getting my attention, saying, hey, you need, you need to connect more deeply You're, you're trying to produce without being connected as well as you should.
Speaker 1:And and then I did. Then another thing was just my wife at you know, saying to me hey, i, i'm a little worried about you. You don't seem like yourself lately And you know I, you're not the, you're not the guy that comes home and just lays on the couch And I feel like you just come home and lay on the couch And some you know some things like that where I'm like, okay, i'm listening And I, you know, i, i'm thankful for, for some of those warning lights.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what? what led you to? I guess John 15? Like what was that the? how was that the? I guess the passage that kind of he landed on.
Speaker 1:So you know, during during the pandemic I I really anchored our church into the conversation that Jesus has with his disciples and what's known as the final discourse, or the farewell discourse, and John 14 through 16, you might include 17 in that if you want to, but I used that as an anchor for us because, you know, here's the conversation that Jesus has with his closest followers on the final night of his earthly life, here before he would be arrested and crucified, and and so what he says to them matters a lot. And what he says to them there are things like hey, in this world you're going to have trouble. You know kind of promises, trouble. And and and he promises in that section of scripture you know, you're not alone, i'm not, i'm not going to leave you as orphans. The Holy Spirit is going to come, counselor, comforter. But it's also in John 15, where he says to them I just love this, i'm the vine, you're the branches. John 15, verse five If you remain in me and I remain in you, you'll bear much fruit. Apart from me, you can't do anything. I would remain. Or translated, a bide. You can also say connect, but you know, if he puts all the emphasis on the branch, staying connected to the vine, which I just find really. I mean, like, think about being in the disciples seat, where Jesus is leaving. He's given you this huge mission, this huge assignment, and you're not sure what to do or how to do it. It would seem like he would spend those final moments giving you some sort of I don't know task list. Here's all the things, here's the checklist you need to work your way through in order to do what I want you to do. It seems like he would be very much focused not on abiding but on act, on action, like let's do something here And and I think that instinctively, when our way is not working, we want to work our way out of it.
Speaker 1:Right, we want to fix it ourselves. We want to. You know, maybe there's some. You know, maybe there's some podcast I haven't listened to. Maybe I need to Google my way out of this situation. There's information. I don't know if I just knew the information and I wouldn't be in this situation.
Speaker 1:And you know, we think the answer is in production, but the answer is in connection. The answer is in abiding, and that's just hard because abiding doesn't often feel very productive. Here's what I mean by that Like if I go home tonight and I say to my wife, hey, i know we talked about going on a walk tonight, but the yard needs mode. I think I'm going to mow the grass instead. And there's part of me that, yeah, the grass needs mode. I get it mode. I can point to it. I can say, hey, look what I got done, look what I got accomplished.
Speaker 1:If I go for a walk with my wife, it doesn't feel like I did much, it just feels like I went for a walk. It's harder to point to, it doesn't feel like you've accomplished something, but that abiding with her, that connecting with her, accomplishes something much more significant. It's just not immediate and it's not always measurable. And so I think for many of us we're, you know, our mindset is very much task oriented. What can I get done today? What can I point to and say here's what I accomplished. And what Jesus does in that conversation is he takes us to the connection. He says look, go, abide, go for a walk with me, and out of that connection you will bear much fruit. Out of that connection the production comes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and that's, would you say, also, like I feel that sometimes that need for production it overflows into like following Jesus, in a way where it's like I got to go to church, i got to do, i got to volunteer.
Speaker 2:I got to do this small group Like and not that those things are bad, but it's just like sometimes, like you just mentioned, how there's like this, like it doesn't feel like just sitting and being still And like you know, you see those passages where Jesus goes and he finds solitude just to be with, be with his father. And for us, as followers of Jesus, sometimes it's not, we don't even do that.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, yeah, i think that's right.
Speaker 1:I also think that mentality I don't know if you grew up this way in church, i think a lot of people do that mentality of production first, what happens is we think the way we connect is by producing, like, okay, if I can just show these things, if I can just do these good works, i can take your pick right.
Speaker 1:Like, as long as I go to church and I pray and I'm and I'm giving and I'm, you know, doing, doing all the good things and not doing the bad things, as long as my life is producing this fruit, then that's what earns connection. And that that's where things get dangerous quickly is because now, now you're you're talking about the opposite of the gospel that the way you connect to God is by producing fruit, that that producing fruit earns you connection. But what Jesus says is it's connection that brings production, that if you connect, if a branch stays connected to the vine, it's going to bear fruit, and and so our job is to stay connected and then trust that the Holy Spirit is going to produce I mean that's why they're called the fruit of the Spirit like the Holy Spirit is going to produce that fruit in us as we stay connected to him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, where is, i guess, like, the balance also of like, because I think in lately it's kind of gotten a little more popularized as some of the spiritual formation pieces, you know, the practices like practicing, the way like I know John Mark Comer's kind of made that really popular. Where's that balance of like? okay, these things aren't like. These things are a, i guess, a pathway to like practicing remaining, but they're not the pathway of like. They're not just going to automatically. You do these things and you're good.
Speaker 1:Right. I tend to think of it as like a relationship right, where if I am trying to connect more deeply with my wife, then I'm going to do some of the same things I would be doing if I was just trying to check the boxes of hey, look what I do, because I'm a good husband, you know like so I might write her a note or I might take her on a date, but the purpose is relationship. The purpose is connecting. I'm not trying to do it to make a case for myself or to prove that I'm a good husband or to you know, check the boxes. That's not duty driven, it's relationship driven. And so I think some of those practices you know it's a very same practice, but it can be more about connection or it could be more about production.
Speaker 1:If you think in terms of Jesus with the religious leaders of his day, you know he said everything they do is for them to see, but their hearts are far from me, like you're doing.
Speaker 1:It's not the problem. What you're doing isn't the problem. The problem is that you're not doing it out of a connection motivation, you're not doing it to connect to me, and so you know, i think that's where we have to measure our hearts And when we have to be to see like their indicators that were getting off track. Like if I'm judgmental of other people because they don't do what I'm doing, that probably means I'm doing the things I'm doing for production rather than connection. If I miss something and feel lots of guilt and shame over it, like if I miss church one weekend for some reason and feel like that's a pretty good indication that it's more about production than connection, and or if other people have to see it rather than doing it when no one's around or when no one's looking like if, then that's a good indication that it's about production instead of connection. So I think that you know, putting our hearts and paying attention to the why is a big, big part of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, i would definitely agree with that. When we kind of think through like a lot of the stuff lately, i think, with like within the church, for instance, you have a lot of pastors that have struggles and things like that How important is this concept? And it seems like it would be obvious. But how important is this concept for, like, not just pastoral leaders but people that are in leadership positions? because it does seem like that when you're ingrained in that culture and it seems to be getting just worse and worse, that like it really can be damaging to a point of like self-implosion in a way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a good question of whether it's getting worse and worse or whether we're just more aware. I Mean I Maybe right, i'm not saying it's not I. I do think that in any kind of leadership role There's a tendency to measure effectiveness by Production, like so you know, for me as a pastor, the easiest thing in the world is to say, okay, i'm gonna measure, i'm gonna measure myself, not by how connected I am to Jesus, but you know how many books that I sell this week and how many people came to church and now You know you can slip into that pretty easy and the people around you will try to measure you that way, which means you've got to actively resist it, and And so I think I think that's true for a lot of different roles, but I certainly think for people in leadership that they can get caught up in In measuring things by by the numbers instead of by the relationship. And I also think it's harder to do things in hiddenness. You know that the then it used to be.
Speaker 1:You know I I just got back from the Middle East not long ago last month, month ago and Spend some time with some friends there mission missionary friends there but they do everything in hiddenness, right like nobody really knows what they do or where they live, and And you know they, they have to fly under the radar. They can't post it and tell other people about it and And while I was serving with them, i thought, man, this is healthy, this is a much healthier way to serve. You know where you're not, you're not always in the spotlight and you're not doing it on stage and nobody's commenting on it or liking it.
Speaker 1:You're just doing that, because that's what you've been called to do, and and so I think that challenge adds an element to this That makes that makes it more difficult.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So what are some? I guess what are what are all? I'll ask that later. But what? maybe? where? where is a point in the book that was maybe a chapter That you felt like had a maybe more profound impact on you than maybe another part? I don't know if that that's not, but If there's a portion of the book that really you were when you wrote it, you were like, man, this is where I'm at, this is what I'm wrestling with you know, for me, the chapter, what is it?
Speaker 1:chapter 9 I talk about, where Jesus says in John 15, you know that God is a good gardener and he prunes. And You know, studying the pruning process, like when my way isn't working, i can expect God to do some pruning in my life and And that pruning doesn't mean that he's against me, means that he loves me and he cares about me, means he wants me to grow in some ways. And You know, what I was convicted by as I Thought this through my own life, is that I have an option like I can. I Can invite God's pruning and it's much better if I invite his pruning. You know he pulls out the snips, right, it's not fun but it's.
Speaker 1:But if I don't invite his pruning and I resist it, resist to resist it, then it just at some point it goes from being snips to being a chainsaw. You know it's. It gets a lot more difficult and painful and so wanting to have a, you know, as part of the connecting process, praying a prayer of pruning, got to trust you, trust your good gardener, trust that there's some things in my life that don't need to be in my life. So where do you need to prune and and um inviting that instead of Resisting. It is something I'm I'm learning to do, but it doesn't come naturally.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how does? how does somebody, i guess, set aside the time to do that, to like invite that pruning processor? I guess a relationship, but also, i guess, reflection.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i think so. I think I would say a couple of things. One is I mean, i'm just a big believer in giving God your mornings. I think you know you referenced this earlier with Jesus from Mark, chapter one. You know that Jesus wakes up early in the morning, while it's still dark. He goes off to pray and The whole village comes to the house where he's been staying while he's off with God.
Speaker 1:When Jesus comes back, they all have this idea of what they think he should do that day. They all have these expectations for him or of him. And when Jesus comes back from time with God, he's like actually no, i'm not staying here, i'm going to the next town, i'm gonna preach over there. God's called me to do that. And by staying connected to him in the morning In that way He was able to prune These expectations, these Plans that other people had for him, and it changed the course of his day.
Speaker 1:I just Really believe that connection, or abiding, that if you start your day doing it, it it Connects you in a way that sets the rest, sets the course of your day, and if you don't do it in the morning, it's it's harder to do it at all. Um, in my experience I know not everybody's a morning person I just think that there's something to this right, and I don't even know that it has to be. I'm not legalistic about it. Maybe you just take 10 minutes, like 10 minutes Before you would normally wake up and you just You know, are are intentional to connect.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i'll say something I've been like a lot lately Like if I get the opportunity to teach, i will literally, just before we move into, like the you know message or whatever, it's just literally pause and just sit in like a few moments of just silence, just like sitting in, like and allowing ourselves to be, open to like what.
Speaker 2:What is God going to speak to us? because it's You know what you're hitting on is so vital, i think because, like, our culture is such a busy culture. Yeah, the western world is such a like go, go, go, go go. One of the ways I learned about this was, uh, in 2016, i spent a summer in new york city. Uh, and I grew up in a small town in south georgia and so, you know, on sundays, things weren't really open. That was kind of a day that was set aside to kind of like Relax a little bit. Okay, but in new york, sundays were like every other day of the week Yeah, let's go, yeah, yep.
Speaker 2:We're doing it, we're doing it, we're doing it, and so it's. I'm finding more and more like and I gotta have Time to get away and I gotta have that time to sit, and I gotta have that time to find rest. um, yeah, you go ahead, sorry.
Speaker 1:Well, i know I was just gonna affirm what you're saying, that it doesn't Like. If you're not intentional to do it, it's unlikely to happen, right? Um, i think it's like a lot of other disciplines or practices and and we use the word connect a lot, but Oftentimes connection requires Disconnection, like, in other words, in order for me to connect to jesus, i need to disconnect from some other things. And you know, i, i if I feel silly to me, honestly, as a 40 You know a man in his 40s to To have to put on my phone time restrictions for youtube and it feels silly. I'm in my 40s. Why should? I, should not need to do that.
Speaker 1:I know that if I don't, if I'm not intentional to disconnect from that, uh, it'll get away from me. And then I'll end up at the end of the day being like, okay, i watched, whatever, a bunch of youtube stuff that wasn't you know and I didn't connect. I didn't connect the way that I wanted to with jesus.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i, i literally do the same, my wife and I actually have like. We have a passcode for each other, so like when I don't know how to? that's it like I don't have it. And you're right, it's just I remember you negotiate the time?
Speaker 1:Do you try to increase it once in a while? Yeah, we do. Yeah, absolutely Can.
Speaker 2:I have a little more time, it's in more minutes, yeah, so, but it's such a yeah, it's such a crazy deal like it. It's just we're so like Invaded with information at all times and you know this, this thing is just slowing down. I think there's a, but I haven't read. I watched this Documentary.
Speaker 2:Was called godspeed Um, and it had like Eugene Peterson on it, so, and I forget the pastor's name, but he I think his name was matt, but he moved to this area in England where he then but he was pastoring a parish but He walked everywhere and he would go house to house and it just was okay, where he learned to like slow down, and and How do you think that that this kind of This, um, this idea of like remaining abiding and slowing down, how does that impact our like relationships as well, not just with like, because, because we have this relationship with Jesus, at some point, there's this, like You know, back and forth with people that I think this has a huge impact on as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, and and those two things are connected in John 15 to, because when, where Jesus says I'm the vine, he doesn't say you're the branch. If you look at it, he said you're the branches. You know it's a plural, it's a plural, so it's not just a Branch connected to the vine, its branches together connecting to the vine. And I didn't think much about that until, as I was writing this, i went out and visited a vineyard and tried to learn about a Little bit more about what this looks like in real life, you know, tried to better understand the metaphor Jesus was using and what a gardener will do, especially if it's like a natural vineyard, one without lattice and such but is, if a, if a branch is in the ground Or on the ground rather, but it's connected to the vine, the, the gardener, one of the things the gardener job does. His job is to pick it up and then intertwine it with other branches, and The and connecting it to the other branches gives it support so that it can stay out of the dirt and begin to grow fruit. And when I saw that, i'm like, okay, that that's a really helpful picture. It's not just about me connecting to Jesus as the vine. It's about me being tangled up enough with some other branches that will help support me So that I won't, you know, even though I'm connected, the vine, i won't find myself in the dirt.
Speaker 1:And so you know, the connection with others is Not really optional spiritually. I mean, if you read scripture, it's just presumed that you're doing this with other people. I don't know. There's so much of Of scripture that you cannot be obedient to alone. This doesn't work. And so I think a lot of the same principles work in connecting, meaning that you know You, the time and intentionality and making space and how you show up, not being always distracted. But you know a lot of the same principles work. But I think prioritizing it where you recognize okay, i'm not. It's not just that I need some friends, it's that God has made me to Connect with him, and the way I connect with him is through my connections with other people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i think of the passage, and I think it's Galatians 6, where it talks about carrying the burdens of. Yeah, and I think about it so often. I kind of mentioned before we started I you know, i helped lead a college ministry when I was in college called abide, and one of the things that we would say was that When we did abide, it wasn't just like this vertical abiding, but we were also Abiding with Christ as we abide with each other and it's exactly what you're you're kind of talking about and you know, i had never thought about, i had never heard that illustration of the vines being kind of like, you know, tied up together and that idea that they they don't fall to the dirt.
Speaker 2:That's such a cool like illustration, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's so cool like, and I think it really hits on like. I think a lot of people are struggling with church some nowadays Because of that lack of like getting connected to a community of people that truly love each other. And that's not to say that there isn't that, but there are people that They get involved and the in church can become a busy thing where there is, like, the desire to have community. But if it's so busy where you're trying to find community, you can't find it, and so it's a such a hard balance.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it is I. I think the You know, i think the connection that can take place in church Requires more than you know I just attending it. It requires what they asked to describe some of this, but you know that they were in each other's homes and You know it requires more of you. And that's the hard thing to say to some people, like, as a pastor, i, you know people will sometimes not feel connected. And they come in and I'm like, well, what are you doing? Like you you're, you have to put effort in. Like you want community, but you don't want to be involved, and I'm like, yes, that's not how it works. So you know, you've got to take some of those, you got to take some of those steps. But you know that what I've discovered in our church is that That community happens much more quickly when we, when we're willing to be honest about our need for it.
Speaker 1:You know about Struggles, were having being vulnerable with challenges. You've referenced Galatians 6 to you know, bear one another's burdens and in doing so you fulfill the law of Christ. But that idea of bearing one another's burdens, i used to think of it as, okay, i'll tell you what my burden is if you can fix it for me or help me. But the idea of bearing one another's burdens is I'm gonna share it with you. I'm gonna tell you what's hard for me, even though I don't think you can do anything about it. I'm just gonna tell you what's hard for me, which is vulnerability. It's it's saying Look, i'm not telling you this because I want you to do something. I'm just telling you this because it's heavy and I need somebody else to shoulder it with me. And Man, when you're in a, in a community where that's happening, it changes things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i've always thought, like you know, church should be a place where, if you're hurting, i'm hurting. If you're celebrating, i'm celebrating. If you're like, if you're walking, i'm walking, if you're running, i'm running. And it's just this, this place where people truly are just, you know, loving on each other. If you know, say there's person listening to this and they're kind of at that place where it's like my way is is not working, like I'm just in a, i'm in the rut, i'm in the valley right now. What would be your words to them?
Speaker 1:You know, i would say First take the word way and try to be more specific with it. Like you know, this is this is implicit in any kind of repentance or humility or confession that there's some specificity to it. So maybe it's. You know, my faith isn't working, my parenting isn't working, my, my relationship isn't working, my Schedule isn't working, my health isn't working. I don't, you know, but but try to define What it is that is out of alignment. You know what it, what it, and then begin to say, okay, How can my connection address The way? like, how can my connection with Jesus help me find a new way of doing things, instead of just saying, okay, here's what I'm gonna do different Instead of that, identifying what it is and then connecting with Jesus with that in mind? Okay, let me give you a specific example.
Speaker 1:I I have four kids. My youngest is 18, getting ready to graduate, or I did just graduate from high school, getting ready to go to college. You know, if I look at myself as a father, getting ready for father, if I look at myself as a father, it's not hard for me to identify three or four ways that just aren't working. I mean, any parent can, if they stop and think about it. They can identify some of those things. So, now that I've identified it, i'm going to connect with Jesus in the morning with that in mind. I'm going to pray about that, i'm going to surrender, that, i'm going to confess, acknowledge that my way in this area isn't working. I'm going to ask him for help, i'm going to pray that he would produce a different kind of fruit in me as a father, and so, by identifying it a little bit more specifically, i'm able to connect in a way that is more intentional And so that I think that's a good place to start.
Speaker 1:I also think you know, just trusting that God will reveal it. Like, if your way is not working and you're not really sure what to circle, you just know you feel discouraged or overwhelmed, or you feel anxious or tired. You just know it's just not right. I mean, i just I would just say tomorrow morning, say your clock 20 minutes earlier than you usually would sit in some silence, read John 15, pray. You know, just do it to see what happens, you know.
Speaker 1:Let me again go back to a relational illustration. If things are not good with my wife and I've been married 27 years and if we have some distance between us and things that's not, our communication just isn't working. Look, we could sit and talk about our communication not working and maybe that's important, but the other thing we could do is we could just go spend time together and go on a date and hang out and connect And as we do, things begin to align, things begin to change. So I think just beginning with that spirit of, okay, i want to connect, i want to trust you, god, to bring a different fruit, is a big step.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Yeah. So have you found any other kind of I guess practices other than getting up in the morning? Do you have any other parts of the day that you scheduled, or are you just mainly that morning?
Speaker 1:I have several others Like I really try to use any time I'm in the car I try to use that as a time to pray, sometimes, listen to worship music. I try to use my shower time. You know, every time I'm in the shower I'll actually take my phone in the shower with me, sit in the corner, turn on some worship music, but yeah.
Speaker 2:I'll listen to all sorts of stuff. I'll just stick it where it won't get wet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know James Clear talks about. He calls it habit stacking, where you take something that you do every day and you, just you stack a connect. You know to use it for my purposes. You stack a spiritual habit onto it, you stack a connecting habit onto it. And so every day I drive somebody's my drive time, every day I take a shower somebody's my shower time, and I think that's a great place to start right, like I'm going to take time to connect with Jesus while I'm doing something I would have done anyway every day. I'm just going to repurpose it.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. Well, kyle, i appreciate you coming on and talking with me about when your way isn't working. Came out on June 6. I believe that was what you said, yeah, and so I encourage listeners get this book. Are there any other resources that come that people can find with the title or anything like that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, there are some other things. If you go to KyleEidlemancom there's some it'll connect you to some other resources that might be helpful.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on Rethinking Christianity and talking through this. It's a challenge for me, as I continue to like. I find these places where I'm like, all right, I'm getting a little anxious or overwhelmed. It's like I got to get away, I got to find some time, And I think really, you know, our lives are so scheduled but we often don't schedule the most important thing. So this is really helpful for me and I'm sure it'll be helpful for others as well.
Speaker 1:I hope so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you for coming on. Thanks, brother. Thanks for listening to Rethinking Christianity. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it with others, post about it on social media or leave a rating and review. To catch all the latest from Rethinking Christianity, you can follow us on Instagram at Rethinking Christianity Podcast, as well as on YouTube and Facebook. Thanks again, and I'll see you next time.