When we think of church culture, the image of a rigid, fundamentalist environment often comes to mind. But what if church could be a place for open dialogue and contemplation, a welcoming space that embraces questions rather than quashing them? Join me as I sit down with Benjamin Cremer and talk through what this can look like.
Benjamin is a very popular voice on Twitter and Instagram where he shares different thoughts on Christianity, the Church, and the Scriptures.
You can follow Benjamin on Socials below and subscribe to his newsletter as well!
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When we think of church culture, the image of a rigid, fundamentalist environment often comes to mind. But what if church could be a place for open dialogue and contemplation, a welcoming space that embraces questions rather than quashing them? Join me as I sit down with Benjamin Cremer and talk through what this can look like.
Benjamin is a very popular voice on Twitter and Instagram where he shares different thoughts on Christianity, the Church, and the Scriptures.
You can follow Benjamin on Socials below and subscribe to his newsletter as well!
Instagram | Follow Here
Newsletter | Subscribe Here
Twitter| Follow Here
I honestly think that's why small groups have become so popular, you know, in recent church histories, because that space creates a lot of openness for dialogue and it can be really healthy. It can also be an unhealthy place for study, but I think that idea of being able to ask questions, but I think it also starts with the pulpit right, this rhythm of the church that we have where we come and gather, and the whole purpose, I believe, is that we're here to not hear answers being given but to think about and meditate and ponder on the scriptures that are being read.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Rethinking Christianity Podcast, a home to conversations focused on rethinking, challenging and engaging with Christian thought. You can visit us on Instagram and Facebook at RethinkingChristianityPodcast. I'm your host, Blake Fine, and thank you for tuning in to today's episode. Thanks for tuning in to RethinkingChristianity. On today's episode, we have Benjamin Kramer, Is that right?
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:Awesome, so glad to have you on. I've seen Benjamin has a lot of tweets that are really compelling and make you think, and I came across some of his stuff on Twitter and really liked it. So I wanted to get you on for an episode and kind of talk through just some different things about faith and Christianity and thanks for coming on.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I appreciate the work you're doing here. I've heard a few episodes that you've done and it really is the mission that I believe in.
Speaker 2:So thanks for all you do. I appreciate it. So tell me a little bit about what you do, where you're at, maybe a little bit about your family.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sure. So I am a campus pastor at a United Methodist Church called Cathedral of the Rockies here in Boise, idaho, and Boise first has been here for about 150 years. We just celebrated our 150th birthday and I'm married, I have a 15, he just turned 15 months old our first little boy named Foster, and so learning what it means to be a parent and a pastor at the same time and looking into my love for writing and those sorts of things, so I'm a pastor congregation here at the campus, but then we have a relationship with the downtown campus as well and we're trying to be one church but multi site campus and navigating what that means.
Speaker 2:That's cool. That's cool. So did you grow up in Idaho? Was that where you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I was a state fan. I am not a sports fan but I do like I. If I root for anybody, it's Boise State, obviously right. But I do like people get upset because I'm like equal opportunity fan, like the Vandals. I guess there's big rivalry between the. Vandals and Boise State and, like you know what, let's just all get along. It's just a game, you know, but people don't like that.
Speaker 1:So yeah yeah, I was raised in in Nampa, idaho, which was super rural at the time. Idaho has just exploded since, since I was born, but really small. It was small about, you know, 10, 15,000 people at the time and now it's just grown exponentially. Home schooled K through 12 and really fundamentalist upbringing. Then we moved to more of a non denominational evangelical when I was about a junior high and then I joined the Church of Nazarene as a senior in high school, which is more of the Wesleyan tradition. And then I moved into a United Methodist church after a really painful experience in ministry there, and so I've been been a Methodist technically for about two years now.
Speaker 2:What did the fundamentalist background look like and what was that kind of a hard transition to make from going, I assume, something very rigid to something not as rigid?
Speaker 1:Well, you know it was, and I know everyone's experience is different, but at least for me I was so young at the time but, looking back, you know I was we were in that fundamentalist tradition until I was about, you know, five or six, and so those first really formative years, it actually influenced our homeschooling curriculum as well. And then we, when we moved to the evangelical, non denominational movement, I couldn't distinguish the difference. It felt just as rigid. A lot of the same things were being spoken about and it just felt like the same church, just different group of people to my young mind. And so then, but my, my parents, on the other hand, you know they were, they were very big proponents of critical thinking and like not accepting things just as they were said.
Speaker 1:And my mom's dad and grandpa were both Nazarene pastors and they were both really strong advocates in the civil rights movement. They desegregated their churches in Mississippi before other churches did. And so we have pictures of my mom and she's the only little girl playing the piano with her dad and an old black church, because their church board even refused to allow black people to attend. And so my grandfather said you know what, I don't care what the board says we're doing this because it's right, and so it was. That's kind of my heritage. But also in Idaho my parents kept running up against this narrative wanting community, expecting a church, wanting friends. But in a place like rural Idaho where that was the norm brand of Christianity, they were trying to navigate that as best they could. And so I kept having this kind of disjointed experience going through, hearing what my parents were advocating for. But then the church culture on top of that.
Speaker 1:And so once I started looking into, I felt this strong call to be a pastor when I was about seven years old and I honestly, like we went through six church splits. We kept like so much infighting and things like that that I had no idea what a healthy church looked like, let alone what healthy pastoring looked like. So I took a year off of high school, you know, in between high school and college, and really tried to discern. You know, where should I take this call or should I just give it up? And so I just started reading a lot. You know I'd read Joseph Smith. I read, you know, all sorts of different traditions religiously in the area. I stumbled on John Wesley and his perspective of grace and things like that, and I thought you know what? You know, the Nazarenes have a university here and if that's the kind of gospel that I can partner with, then I feel confident that I could do some work with that. And so that started me down the journey of pursuing education and in Christian ministries, philosophy and church history.
Speaker 2:That's cool. What? So you mentioned Wesley. Were there any other voices that kind of really influenced some of your pastoral and just Christian thinking?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So Wesley, it was kind of the gateway into reading more historical figures and you know I would, I would get really fired up about a few. You know people and then kind of move on, you know, from there. But I'd say the most consistent formative voices in my theology and my pastoral life is Dietrich Bonhoeffer, soren Kierkegaard he was. He.
Speaker 1:I was kind of deconstructing freshman year of high school and then I read Stephen Trembling and like Kierkegaard saved my faith, like with no uncertain terms. I finally found a place where my mind could go to have these deep questions addressed and walked with and actually went and visited his grave in Copenhagen, denmark, because he had such a huge impact on my thinking and Christianity. And so Dietrich Bonhoeffer, but there's so many like Susanna Wesley John Wesley's mom, like was the theologian in his life and so her writings are huge. Phoebe Palmer, a lot of writings from Rosa Parks, you know. So there's there's an array of voices like Stanley Howrowass and Walter Bruebemann who are more contemporary, but I would say that's kind of the immediate constellation that informs my thinking a lot of the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you mentioned that you began somewhat of a deconstruction process when you were, do you say, at junior and high school Was that right? Or junior college?
Speaker 1:Gosh, you know it. I would say it kind of got put on steroids as a freshman in college.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Because I was, you know, reading all of these things I'd never known before. Yeah, you know, I came into college believing all sorts of things about Christianity that were being questioned in the classroom.
Speaker 2:I understand completely, yeah, so. So what kind of what were some of those questions? I what kind of like began some of that?
Speaker 1:Well, so it was mostly reading the Bible more seriously. You know, I had a lot of convictions that were about an inch deep about the Bible and especially about who we are called to be as Christians. And so once I started just understanding the messy nature of church history especially, I started questioning a lot of these convictions that I had just taken on without question, you know. And so once I started questioning, like I came in believing you know, the rapture is a really good example Like I had a whole theology built around that. That I started really deeply questioning. And when you start questioning stuff about the end times, you can't help but start questioning a lot of other things because so much is tied to that, and so I would have a faith crisis every semester. That's what I tell a lot of students who want to like go study theology, just like, just go in there knowing you're going to have a faith crisis and things might go a little bit smoother for you. It's all part of the journey, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I totally know what you mean. I remember, man, it's so funny thinking about the stuff, some of the things I grew up, in which a lot of evangelical Christians grew up in. It's just like the left behind series and all that I remember reading those books and I was like this is insane Good books honestly, but very entertaining yeah good storyline.
Speaker 2:But yeah, yeah, I went through a very similar thing when I got to my undergrad degree, where I was working through just questions about the Bible and like things that I had heard in the pulpit and in church and just it's so interesting. You know, when you look at especially a Western Christian world that's very, very capitalist based, you get such a mix of theology in popular theology, so you'll have people that are speaking at the same conferences and stuff that think like wildly different things about certain subjects, and so it's. It also can be really confusing If you then go to college and you begin to actually have to wrestle with some of these differences, so it's just such an interesting thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it makes it like you bring up such a good point because it's not just questioning like intellectual beliefs, it's like the culture that you're part of family and relationships and relationship with the Bible. It's at the core of so much of your identity that asking these questions and really learning these things, it takes a really big, heavy lift.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I can't imagine, you know one of the things that I'm not a parent, I'm married. But one of the things I can't imagine is thinking through all like what stuff do I want to present to? The kid Like I do, so it's just like there's so much that goes into it, so I'm sure you can definitely relate to that. One of the things that I was interested in you mentioned how you read that book it was called Fear and Trembling is that correct.
Speaker 2:And you said that that was a space where you could really deal with some of those questions. And I think a lot of times, especially in church, people don't have that space to like wrestle with some of these questions. So, as a pastor, how do we do that? How do we kind of create these places and spaces for people to be able to work through some of these things?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think you know I'd like to get into this a little more in a little bit, but just moving forward in the church, what do you think that that kind of looks like?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I honestly think that's why small groups have become so popular, you know, in recent church histories, because that space creates a lot of openness for dialogue and it can be really healthy. It can also be an unhealthy place for study, but I think that idea of being able to ask questions, but I think it also starts with the pulpit, right, it's this rhythm of the church that we have, where we come and gather, and the whole purpose, I believe, is that we're here to not hear answers being given but to think about and meditate and ponder on the scriptures that are being read. And then, you know, I'm a strong advocate of weekly communion to where we participate with the mystery of what the Eucharist is, and that there are things that we don't know and may never fully know. But just because God is unknowable doesn't mean that God isn't forever knowable, right. So God is perpetually knowable, right Doesn't mean that God isn't knowable. So to continue to try to bring that rhythm into our worship is important. And so I've just started reminding my congregation, you know, every week almost that, like as your pastor, I'm not here to tell you what to think, I'm here to think with you over these things.
Speaker 1:And then we look at parts of the Bible, like right now we're in a sermon series called Twisted Scripture. It's kind of our second round of this, because it was so popular before where we take parts of the Bible where people have really deep questions about, like the talk about God commanding violence or genocide, or the God that we see in the flood, and who Jesus is when he says go sell your cloaks and buy swords. You know, like these, these strong questions that we have about that, and so I've just taken that opportunity to bring these scriptures up and say this is the common interpretation of it. But what does the text actually say and how could we untwist this from the cultural narrative to maybe what the Holy Spirit's trying to lead us to understand in the midst of those things? And that I was nervous that that wasn't going to be received, but it's been really well received because people want an opportunity to doubt and ask questions, even though they may not admit that they want that.
Speaker 2:That's a strong part of why we need to gather so yeah, and I think, even like, even for the people that may not be working through any of that doubt, just like having the place to be like well, I can if I need to, and I think that that's a really, really powerful thing because, you know, my growing up in a lot of ways was just like this is how it is, this is what it is and it's. You know, there's a big in the evangelical world, I'm sure, as you know this the need for the apologetic side of Christianity, and so it's like we always had to have like a defense for questions and things like that, where you're almost, in a way, like trained to like push away any doubt, have to have an answer, whereas part of, like the beauty of spirituality is that there is this mystery to some of these things, and that was something I'm kind of like recognizing now, that maybe that need for an apologetic to every question that we have isn't really healthy.
Speaker 1:Right. Well, it kind of fosters like, if we look at it from a spiritual formation standpoint, it fosters a really combative spirit. It's so much part of that kind of culture war mentality that the culture is evil, the world is evil and so we have to defend our faith, rather than this is the world that God so loved, that God said Jesus into the world, and so they're not our enemies, they're our neighbors, and so how do we come alongside, not combatively, but in love.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you actually had. There's a tweet that you tweeted that I have written down, that I wanted to talk about because it kind of ties into this and this is one that I saw. This I was like that's so good, they're all good.
Speaker 2:But I really like this one, though the Christianity should feel like my love for others continues to deepen. Not my beliefs are more correct than anyone else's, and you know, when you wrote that I was, I was like, you know, that's something that, like that resonates with me so much, just cause I felt like what I just kind of mentioned and what you've mentioned is there's this need for this culture war, and you know, I've been thinking through this idea lightly of how, when we begin to really really like defend our faith and like feel like we have to win this war, we then begin to really only care and love the people that think like us and look like us and and, yeah, we begin to redefine, like what it means to like love our neighbors as a self, and we were to redefine who, who our neighbors even are.
Speaker 2:Yeah um, so how do you, you know, what are your thoughts on, like, how do we have, like, open dialogue on these topics? Because some of the things that you tweet up, I mean they are challenging kind of the, especially the, you know, christian use as a political weapon and so that can be really tough to talk through because people are very passionate right now, right in a very divided country.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I think you know, and everybody has their different skills and gifts, like you with your podcast. You know I'm I'm not a video or a podcast Creator person. I know that my skills don't lie in that area. I have a face for writing. Yeah, so we're just kidding. But, uh, I so I I really enjoy writing and I feel like a lot can happen when people are Stop and contemplate a longer piece. You know, when they're willing to do that, there's more dialogue able to happen.
Speaker 1:So I, I've, I've kind of that's kind of sent me into my newsletter which goes out every, you know, every Sunday morning, and I have Progressives, conservatives, independence, like people who are wanting to talk about the messy gray area, and that has even been surprising to me that, like you know, people who are further on the right of the spectrum. You know there's this kind of myth with among progressives that they don't want to talk ever. But it's not true. You know, my dad is conservative but he he is so open to talking about things and you get to understand how he relates to conservatism and some or his definition of what that means to him. You know, conserving good things and I believe in that too. Good things need to be conserved but he also doesn't like where his Movement has gone either, and so there's people trying to reform that from within as well, and so it gets less cut and dry and less extreme when you're willing to have that conversation.
Speaker 1:But I think the space in which you have the conversation is just as important as the conversation, and so news, the newsletter or a small group of people who are there for the same goal. Social media can often not be the best place because they're just lobbing hand grenades and I've been guilty of that myself Like I'll get really upset about something or I'll get reactionary and I'll post something and then like delete it right away because it's like I feel so Bad about like that kind of. I don't want that kind of posture. But it's so easy to get there because social media is built on reactionary, hyperbolic trends. That's how the algorithms are built, and so I think the space is so important for For that kind of dialogue to take place.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's funny you missed that. I mean, that's the thing is, that's why clickbait is such a popular thing, that you know Headlines that if you get mad at I mean, I see my same thing as you, I see myself. When I, when I see an article or see something that really aggravates me, I'll look at it, I'll click on me. What the heck is this?
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, and it's like they they know what they're doing and it's designed in a way to continue to just like Create this combative spirit. And so it's kind of like this Weird deal where we we have, like Christianity that in some ways has become a lot about, you know, winning a war, and then you have, you know, we create enemies out of everyone. Um, so when did you so? You've mentioned that you really you enjoy riding Um. When did you begin to kind of like put out some of these thoughts in short form? Because the Um, I feel like it happened pretty quick. I could be wrong. I just remember I saw your stuff more and more then.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I. So I, I fought it for a really long time, you know, because I I am, so I love the local church and a lot of the things that it has to offer for discipleship and relationship that way, and so I kept fighting, kind of this call to to write and publish things a little bit more. But in 2019 I just got to the point of Hark. It was heartbreak, what that? Let it, let it to that. Uh. So I wrote a lament to you know, my tradition, the evangelical church, uh, and just kind of contrast with here's the things that you taught us to be and here's what we see living out right now, and they just don't match, you know. And so I posted that in june of Of 2019 and that really seemed to resonate with a lot of people. And right then I've started feeling like, okay, I, I would really like to wade into that area of writing a bit, you know, really cautiously, but it feels like a strong part of my, my calling Um so that's.
Speaker 1:That's kind of. When it started, it was 2019. That's cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I mean the, the stuff that you put out Continue like very. I just resonate with it. So much so, and obviously a lot of people do Um as well, and I think what I appreciate about it is there is this you kind of mention cautiousness in some ways, but it's also very bold. Some, I mean the things that you say are bold, um, but it's it's pushing against this need, like that we have to have a rigid faith, like that it has to have this rigid Rigidity yeah so how do we, how do we avoid that?
Speaker 2:How do we avoid a rigid faith in your mind?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I think it's. I think it's really difficult because One of the tendencies as a recovering fundamentalist like that's such a strong part of my upbringing, my, my theology, was rooted in that the tendency is to become just as fundamentalist in the opposite side, right, and so, like the whole goal is to resist fundamentalism, it's to resist that kind of rigidity and what I've, what I've found to speak so powerfully to, that is the humility of Christ. Philippians chapter 2 is like I think that's such an underrated text for politic, for christian political witness, for Our, our, our ideas of what apologetics look like. It's this, you know Paul beautifully describes the humility of christ, who didn't see relationship with god as something to be exploited but became a servant for all of humanity, even to the point of death on a cross and like man. If that was the groundwork for our public witness, our cultural relationship, um, our political witness, like what, what a difference that would make in our public discourse and our, in our postures.
Speaker 1:Christians Are in our, in our culture, and so I really think the humility that we see in christ, how he participated with the culture, the empire, you know, the religious authorities, like he was definitely bold, but it was always with that humility that we see it wasn't aggressive or hostile, and I think those are such different things, right, boldness isn't hostile, it's not malicious against the person you're talking to, and so that humility, I think, is just a fundamental part of resisting that rigidity and noticing in yourself when you're starting to gravitate that way and it's really hard not to when you feel like you're fighting a cause that you believe in right, but maintaining that humble witness.
Speaker 1:I think that's what we see in a lot of the historical figures that we really emulate and admire. Martin Luther King Jr is a perfect example of that. You hear him speaking so boldly, but he does so in a way with love for his enemies, love for those who persecute him, like he does that so well, in same with Bonhoeffer, you know they just they have this witness that is just soaked in humility, and that's, I think, just a fundamental part of resisting that rigidity in ourselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that was something that I struggled with. So when I began working through some of my doubt and deconstruction, I remember like at the time I had been hurt by people, some people in the church, and so part of it was like this like you know what I'm just going to like, learn as much as I can, just so I know more about this than you do. And in a way, it was like you know the old saying goes of like you know, you know, revenge and like bitterness is like drinking poison and expecting other people to get punished, but so good and it hurts yourself.
Speaker 1:It does.
Speaker 2:And I realized like that I was just as fundamental in trying to like just have knowledge and be puffed up and like having understanding. And you know, I remember going through a season where if I'd hear a sermon I'd be like, oh, that's not what that passage means or you know whatever. And I was just like so.
Speaker 2:Pushing every worship song like the melody of that song and I just became, you know, real turd, honestly, and it was just like I began to realize, like I got to a point where I was like dude, like just, this is not humility in any way. And you mentioned that passage in Philippians. It also reminds me of the passage where I believe it's James and John they come, they send their mom to Jesus and they're asking for power and Jesus is thunder, yeah, yeah and Jesus is like he, literally, when she walks up to him he's literally like what is it you want?
Speaker 2:And he already knows, and you know, goes through this whole spill about like the rulers, the Gentile rules, the rulers. They use power and they use it to their authority, but not so with you. And he says even the Son of man didn't come to be served, but to serve and to give his life away as a ransom for many.
Speaker 2:And it's like when I think about that passage, I'm challenged with that question, like when I do this podcast, when I do conversations with people, when I get aggravated, like when I'm dealing with my faith. That question of like, what is it that you want? What is it you want out of this? Is this something to like gain for yourself, or are you trying to be correct, or have that knowledge? Are you trying to like win a conversation? And that humility that you mentioned is such a challenge, but it's everything that Jesus did.
Speaker 1:It's so hard. Yeah, I love that you mentioned that passage of James and John because that became such a convicting part of scripture for me. Because, as I was sitting there listening to the question, we want to be on your right and left and then he says you don't know what you're asking. Then I picture them standing at the foot of the cross, seeing who's on his right and left, and like this is when Jesus came into power and realizing we don't define power the same way. Like they were thinking thrones right, but Jesus was journeying towards the cross. And like that to me is just like you know what, just like what you said. It confounded my definition of power and I'm like you know what I don't understand power the same way Jesus does, and I don't think a large swath of Christianity does either. I mean, our history shows that since Constantine, we don't define power the way that Jesus does. We defined it so much like the way of the world. All I'll say is the world has it wrong. It's just really contradictory.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the hard thing is is a lot of, in a lot of ways, a lot of the loudest voices in the Christianity in the church right now kind of seem to like I Don't know if I don't want to like polarize all, all people within, yes, evangelicalism, but in a lot of ways what is being represented isn't necessarily what people actually are within the church like they're. You know, I'm reminded all the time, like you know, within my frustrations, of Christianity in the church and things like that. I'm reminded here and there like I'll just have little things happen.
Speaker 2:Like you know, I preached a couple weeks ago and I had a this lady I've never met you, I think she lives a assisted living, but a member of our church and she saw the sermon on TV and she just wrote me this handwritten little note just encouraging me and so it's like these things, that there's like even in my you know critical eye of the church, there's still these really great people that love Jesus, they want to follow Jesus and they're here to encourage you and the crazy thing is it's like those are people probably I probably have disagreements with us, as we all do.
Speaker 2:And it's such a hard thing because when I see like people that are so I guess, against the church right now or they've been hurt by the church, they have a right to that, but in other ways, sometimes I feel like maybe the messages that they're hearing or seeing Don't necessarily always represent all of them, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:No, absolutely. I resonate with that a lot because when, when that kind of culture is all you know, like in rural Idaho and but like that's the only kind of Christianity you know, there's this perception that that's all is Christianity, that that's, it's that way, right, and it's a loud minority that has been working for over 50 years to get to the Supreme Court that we have now right, like there's been orchestrated efforts. So you look at those big things, but that's I mean we can. We can critique the, the political and theological right about being susceptible to conspiracies, all we want, but that's also a way that more progressive left gets into conspiracies too that like they've Orchestrated it's, it's all encompassing, it's a giant cabal, when really it's a very loud minority that has been Financially and networked really well the last 50 years since Brown versus Board of Education, and so I Think so much of that is to keep in mind the local church.
Speaker 1:I think that's why I remained in the local church is because we see these faithful people who come and feed people. Like we have a food food pantry here on campus and we service about 250 families every week through it and you just see dedicated people who are quietly going about serving and wanting to change for the better in our communities. And so when you don't, when you don't see that and your Exposure is only to that brand of Christianity, like, I understand that kind of anger. But I didn't even know, I didn't even know Methodist existed, you know, I didn't know that there were, you know, quakers and like all these other Faithful group Jesuits, like people who would have been faithfully trying to oppose the power of Empire in Christianity since it began, until I started Exposing myself to that.
Speaker 2:And so I think there's a lot of work to be done to understand the grievances but also to widen our, our worldview of the breadth and diversity of Christianity as well yeah, yeah, I would definitely agree with that, and that's something that's been really helpful for me is like realizing that my American, like Southern Baptist growing up is is very, very small in the history of the church, yeah, and that there's people that have asked some of the same questions that I've asked and have the same challenges that I've had.
Speaker 2:Way before me like a long time ago.
Speaker 1:You know, I'll tell them they got burned at the stake. So I mean yeah.
Speaker 2:And so, like I'm okay with asking questions now, but, like you know, one of the things I had in the last couple years came across as just reading more of like Not even just Protestant thinking, they're reading Catholic thinking and orthodox thinking. And yeah, you know, there's a guy I think he's trying to remember a Calistos where was one as an orthodox father he's still alive, I believe, but he has this really cool pamphlet on like the Jesus prayer and you know, there's all these different like resources out there that just really open up a different angle of faith. That's not just the Western American, right, you can gel a cool way of doing things, and so it allows you to even just open up your theology and thinking, and it's been really, really helpful for me.
Speaker 1:That's so good. It's been helpful for me too.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So as you've kind of like are continuing to write I know you're doing your newsletter Do you have like a specific direction that you're going in that, or is it just kind of like you know what comes to you as as you're observing the church and the world and things like that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've, you know, it definitely started out that way, like what I'm Observing if, like, a lot of people are talking about a particular issue, I'll get a lot of questions, and so what? Then I kind of frame my newsletter around that issue because I really want it to be Something that people are wanting to you know, ask questions about or understand a little bit deeper. And so I think my direction is just that you know, I've called it into the gray, but it's that intersection between the collision of theology and culture and religion and politics to try to just Navigate it with more discernment. Right, because my my goal isn't to give answers, I really want to Contemplate these things together, and so that's the direction I feel like I want to maintain and dig into even deeper as we go forward is To build our ability to contemplate and to think deeper about these issues, rather than, like you're, like you said, the kind of the clickbait version of these things that we often make Decisions about, our convictions over.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's really cool. Where can, where can people find that newsletter to subscribe to? So we can. So it's.
Speaker 1:It's on the top of each One of my social media profiles. So Twitter, instagram, facebook there's just a link there that you can subscribe for for free, and I'm doing my best to keep it free. I Wasn't aware of this the beginning, but with the resource I used to send out my newsletters Charges, the more people subscribe, and so I'm like, oh, I'm paying for this thing, and so a lot of people have stepped up and and helped me to keep that free and add free as well, and so, yeah, you can subscribe there and I'll give you a link to, to put the show notes?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we definitely will. I'm always, you know, I always want to push people towards, like, just other resources and thinking. You know that's always been the goal of this podcast and you know I've reposted some of the thoughts that you've put out and I just always find it fun, really interesting. So, as we kind of Close out, I'd love to hear, like, if you have any thoughts for someone Maybe that is observing some of the things that we all are observing within the church or they're walking through Maybe some deconstruction, and now what would be, maybe some words that you would have for that person?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I only know what's been really helpful for me and and so my hope is that would resonate with with others too is that when you're studying church history, you kind of see this cyclical reform happen, right, almost like clockwork, about every 500 years between, you know, orthodoxy and the Catholic Church, then Protestant Reformation, then we go through and we have, you know, all these different movements throughout the United States. And so, I think, understanding that we are in the midst of reform right now, wide-scale, whether we, I think, accepting that as our reality is really really important for the church as a whole but also understanding and giving ourselves grace that it's really really difficult to be caught in the middle of what the church has been and what it will become. And I made me resonate with all of the people that I've been with. I made me resonate with all of the narratives of the Israelites, like traveling through the wilderness, and they did that for, you know, 40 years. That's an entire generation of people, and so we may not even see where the church will be.
Speaker 1:We know what parts of the church we don't that need to be reformed, that we don't want to have part of us anymore, right, but reform happens when we are faithful to people, but also faithful to where the Holy Spirit is leading us. And the Holy Spirit corrects and fulfills God's people. Corrects and fulfills like that's the nature of the Holy Spirit Right, correcting, fulfilling, correcting, fulfilling. And so we are in the midst of kind of correcting season right now, but the Holy Spirit is going to come along and fulfill a lot of these things too, and so that's that's given me hope of saying you know what I'm going to hold on to this. I'm not going to let it burn me out. I'm not going to let it. You know, I'm going to rest when I need to, I'm going to ask the questions when I need to, but I'm not going to allow the hostility that I'm pushing against Start to shake who I am either, and I'm going to be intentional about understanding that tension between what the church has been and where we're going in the future.
Speaker 2:That's really good, that's really helpful. Yeah, and that continual reminder that, like, a lot of these things that we're seeing have in some ways come before and a different, in a little different ways that have come before. But yeah that's really, really helpful. Well, Ben, I really appreciate you coming on Rethinking Christiane and it's talked through some different ideas. Where can people find your social media stuff?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you can find me on Twitter or whatever. It's going to be called X, I think through something I can't keep up? Yeah, me either. So, whatever Twitter is, when you hear this on there at BR Kramer and that's the same handle for Instagram too and then just my name Benchman Kramer at Facebook, and then my newsletters called into the gray and you can subscribe on any of those social media channels.
Speaker 2:Sweet. I'll put all those in the show notes for when this is released. But yeah, man, thanks so much for coming on. I'm always really appreciative of people just having open dialogue and just talking through their experience of faith and it helps me a lot and I know it helps our listeners. So thanks for coming on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like I said, I really appreciate you and the work you're doing. It really is making a difference. So thanks so much for having me on.
Speaker 2:Thanks for listening to Rethinking Christianity. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it with others, post about it on social media or leave a rating and review. To catch all the latest from Rethinking Christianity, you can follow us on Instagram at RethinkingChristianity Podcast, as well as on YouTube and Facebook. Thanks again and I'll see you next time.